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Post by Zephy on Sept 14, 2019 4:36:58 GMT
Suggestion redacted; 2019/09/14Howdy, all. I have a special topic that I need to discuss openly.I recently was made aware that there was a twelfth rule added; no alt accounts on the server. I was told this was to combat circumventing bans and to reduce lag. However, I believe that Rule #12 shouldn't exist because it doesn't create any extra lag, and doesn't dissuade people who've been banned to simply rejoin with an alt account. My reasoning is as follows.
-Alt Accounts Do Not Cause Server Lag
The argument for Rule #12, aside from trying to keep away banned players, is that it causes the server to lag and slow down. While at first, adding more users to the server does sound like it would cause more lag to occur, the reality is clear: this is not the case. Alt accounts don't cause server lag. As a test, I did a simple test to determine the amount of server lag while a chunk is loaded and unloaded. I asked for the tps (ticks per second) from two locations; spawn and my wool farm. I wasn't allowed to conduct the test more than once. The following statistics are from a moderator.
The tps while idle at the wool farm was 13.477.
The tps while idle at spawn was 13.08.
While there is a difference of ~.397 ticks of lag, the test wasn't isolated, only done once, and many other variables couldn't be taken into account. The difference in lag while at my wool farm was imperceivable to everyone else, not noticeable. This means that afk-ing at somewhere like a wool farm would cause the server to undoubtedly experience less than .397 ticks of lag. The number of entities at my farm doesn't impact the performance or the lag of the server, whether they are or aren't loaded.
If the amount of lag produced by afk-ing at a farm were .100 ticks per second, and twelve people were at different farms, the lag would only ever amount to 1.2 ticks of lag. The exact number is possibly less, and therefore negligible to the server's performance for its users.
In short, it isn't making a difference to the performance of the server. Even though the server is having lag issues, it is not as a result of people afk-ing at farms. It wouldn't strain the server.
-Rule #12 Does Not Prevent Users from Circumventing BansThis argument is significantly solid, and people who've been guilty of violating the rules must serve their punishment. However, this doesn't do much to deter people from using another user to circumvent bans, because it isn't effective.
It isn't effective because of something that's existed since the very beginning; every players' IP is known by the admins and moderators. Every person who's ever logged in has their IP stored and the IPs of banned players are especially taken note of. IPs are usually fixed and can't be changed unless you want to pay for a VPN. I wouldn't bet on banned Minecraft users paying an additional $26.95 for a new account on top of a monthly VPN service to counteract a ban.
How it works is that if a user is banned, they could use another account to access the server. However, their IP would register the same. Using different accounts doesn't change your IP and the admins would promptly notice your IP and have you IP banned if you weren't already.
Not allowing alt accounts because you don't want players circumventing their bans is ineffective and useless. We have a better system to manage people who are trying to cheat their way out of a ban, and we're already using it. It isn't fair to the players to not allow alt accounts because of a problem that often doesn't occur and is already easily manageable. A sign saying that you can't use an alt account to circumvent a ban isn't going to stop cheaters from cheating again.
As a personal note, I know a lot of Simplex players who've used alt accounts in the past to make their gathering of materials easier. They don't have to waste time sitting in one spot just to keep an area loaded, and have more time to freely play around in the server and have fun. The introduction of Rule #12 however, doesn't add positive experience to the player on the server and arguably makes their experience worse. Instead of being able to do two things at once, players must remain in the area and keep their chunks loaded. This forces them to remain idle for minutes or hours, sitting in a spot while doing nothing.
This kind of inconvenience makes the Simplex experience, in my opinion, dull and exhausting.
I've wasted hours of personal time this week waiting at my farm, unable to move or risk losing out on wool production. This can leave a person feeling bored and trapped, wanting to do more on the server but having to wait until they're done farming what they need, which could take hours. The amount of productivity, the fun, and enjoyment you could be doing are lost because of this rule. It forces players to spend hours standing idle to gather resources instead of engaging with players, building spectacular creations, and enjoying the game.
I respect the Staff, I admire all of them. They make the rules for users to follow so we can all have a good time. As much as I respect their authority, I am humbly arguing and protesting against this rule, as it makes the server experience worse for anyone with alt accounts who don't want to waste time. It doesn't prevent any of the aforementioned problems, and I hope a discussion can be made and a compromise reached because I want to keep my experience at Simplex, and the experience of others, full of joy and not full of boredom. I hope my words and concerns are heard and that the Staff consider removing the rule or at the very least, make exceptions to it.
Kind Regards,
-EnderKitty
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Post by Kitty on Sept 14, 2019 5:09:30 GMT
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Post by Zephy on Sept 14, 2019 5:24:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2019 5:50:32 GMT
I recently was made aware that there was a twelfth rule added; no alt accounts on the server. I was told this was to combat circumventing bans and to reduce lag. I'm not sure exactly where you heard this, but it wasn't exactly added to reduce lag or combat ban circumvention, or because we changed our minds on the subject for that matter. It was added because of a case which was a bit of a mess that would have been much more clear-cut if this was a rule. Rules don't do anything to combat or prevent something. They're there to keep order, and they simply make you aware of what you shouldn't do, and if you break a rule, that's on you.
-Alt Accounts Do Not Cause Server LagThe argument for Rule #12, aside from trying to keep away banned players, is that it causes the server to lag and slow down. While at first, adding more users to the server does sound like it would cause more lag to occur, the reality is clear: this is not the case. Alt accounts don't cause server lag. As a test, I did a simple test to determine the amount of server lag while a chunk is loaded and unloaded. I asked for the tps (ticks per second) from two locations; spawn and my wool farm. I wasn't allowed to conduct the test more than once. The following statistics are from a moderator. The tps while idle at the wool farm was 13.477. The tps while idle at spawn was 13.08. While there is a difference of ~.397 ticks of lag, the test wasn't isolated, only done once, and many other variables couldn't be taken into account. The difference in lag while at my wool farm was imperceivable to everyone else, not noticeable. This means that afk-ing at somewhere like a wool farm would cause the server to undoubtedly experience less than .397 ticks of lag. The number of entities at my farm doesn't impact the performance or the lag of the server, whether they are or aren't loaded. If the amount of lag produced by afk-ing at a farm were .100 ticks per second, and twelve people were at different farms, the lag would only ever amount to 1.2 ticks of lag. The exact number is possibly less, and therefore negligible to the server's performance for its users. In short, it isn't making a difference to the performance of the server. Even though the server is having lag issues, it is not as a result of people afk-ing at farms. It wouldn't strain the server. Sure, by themselves alts don't cause lag, but what they load sure can. Also this test is flawed as fuck and probably couldn't be any more flawed even if you tried. There were presumably around 24 other players online, meaning that this is a completely uncontrolled environment, and you're using one specific farm as a test without even having a clue about how much performance it takes to run that farm by itself. This is like trying to measure how fast the air you breathe out travels using an external device in front of your mouth while standing outside in the middle of a fucking storm. Also "ticks of lag" is not a thing. Ticks take a certain amount of time to process, and when ticks take over 50ms to process, that's when it starts lagging. If ticks take less than 50ms to process the server would run at 20tps. If they take exactly 50mspt the server would run at 20tps. If they take exactly 100mspt the server would run at 10tps. Anyway, even assuming your test had any sort of value and the server would drop to 15tps from 16tps, that would not be "1 tick of lag". The tps dropping by 1 from the initial value when running a farm means something entirely different depending on what the original TPS value is. Dropping from 18tps (55.556mspt) to 16tps (62.500mspt) is a difference of about 7mspt. Dropping from 12tps (83.334mspt) to 10tps (100.000mspt) is a difference of 16.7mspt. Furthermore, just because one person is using an alt to idle at a location that takes 0.5mspt to run, that doesn't mean another person won't be at a location that takes 8mspt to run. Anyway, this kind of bullshit wasn't allowed even before this rule was added, despite never being explicitly stated in the rules. We don't care if you're idle at a farm so long as you're there, but when you starts bringing alts with the sole purpose of idling at farms into play you're really pushing it well across the line. Also, ANYTHING takes up SOME performance. Sometimes it's barely measurable. Other times it's a lot. Whatever the case, you're here presumably to play to the game, so how about actually playing the game? -Rule #12 Does Not Prevent Users from Circumventing BansThis argument is significantly solid, and people who've been guilty of violating the rules must serve their punishment. However, this doesn't do much to deter people from using another user to circumvent bans, because it isn't effective. It isn't effective because of something that's existed since the very beginning; every players' IP is known by the admins and moderators. Every person who's ever logged in has their IP stored and the IPs of banned players are especially taken note of. IPs are usually fixed and can't be changed unless you want to pay for a VPN. I wouldn't bet on banned Minecraft users paying an additional $26.95 for a new account on top of a monthly VPN service to counteract a ban. How it works is that if a user is banned, they could use another account to access the server. However, their IP would register the same. Using different accounts doesn't change your IP and the admins would promptly notice your IP and have you IP banned if you weren't already. Not allowing alt accounts because you don't want players circumventing their bans is ineffective and useless. We have a better system to manage people who are trying to cheat their way out of a ban, and we're already using it. It isn't fair to the players to not allow alt accounts because of a problem that often doesn't occur and is already easily manageable. A sign saying that you can't use an alt account to circumvent a ban isn't going to stop cheaters from cheating again. No shit. Rules don't prevent or combat anything, It's their enforcement that does. This rule wasn't even added to combat ban evasion in the first place. That doesn't mean shouldn't be a rule though.
As a personal note, I know a lot of Simplex players who've used alt accounts in the past to make their gathering of materials easier. They don't have to waste time sitting in one spot just to keep an area loaded, and have more time to freely play around in the server and have fun. The introduction of Rule #12 however, doesn't add positive experience to the player on the server and arguably makes their experience worse. Instead of being able to do two things at once, players must remain in the area and keep their chunks loaded. This forces them to remain idle for minutes or hours, sitting in a spot while doing nothing. This kind of inconvenience makes the Simplex experience, in my opinion, dull and exhausting. I've wasted hours of personal time this week waiting at my farm, unable to move or risk losing out on wool production. This can leave a person feeling bored and trapped, wanting to do more on the server but having to wait until they're done farming what they need, which could take hours. The amount of productivity, the fun, and enjoyment you could be doing are lost because of this rule. It forces players to spend hours standing idle to gather resources instead of engaging with players, building spectacular creations, and enjoying the game. Using alts for this kind of stuff (or any kind of stuff, really) was never supposed to be a thing in the first place. This doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's your choice to be idle instead of doing something else and having fun.
I respect the Staff, I admire all of them. They make the rules for users to follow so we can all have a good time. As much as I respect their authority, I am humbly arguing and protesting against this rule, as it makes the server experience worse for anyone with alt accounts who don't want to waste time. It doesn't prevent any of the aforementioned problems, and I hope a discussion can be made and a compromise reached because I want to keep my experience at Simplex, and the experience of others, full of joy and not full of boredom. I hope my words and concerns are heard and that the Staff consider removing the rule or at the very least, make exceptions to it. No. You wrote this entirepost as if we ever said "yeah you can go ahead and use alts to idle at farms" before the rule was added. The "do not cause lag" section of your post is just complete bullshit. The "circumvent bans" section is literally not even an argument. And the remainder of your post essentially just says "I want to be able to use an alt to idle at farms", which is just not going to happen. If you're going to post something like this do your research and maybe find a point to actually argue on why it should be allowed. (Finding it not fun to idle at farms is not a valid argument.) The only exception to the rule I can think of would be if someone lost access to their old account (meaning that it won't be online at the same time anyway). |
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Post by Choo_Imperium on Sept 14, 2019 6:17:55 GMT
You can just bring sheep with you.
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Post by SnuRRe0 on Sept 14, 2019 7:10:20 GMT
This was such a ridiculous post, that I wanted to reply so bad, but veil got here before me. He basically said everything I wanted to.
What are your alt accounts again? plz inform us. Also, buying alt accounts to evade bans? Nah, ppl can get free stolen accounts on shady websites, but that's no fun. Ppl dont buy alt account to evade bans.
Also, here is a graph, comparing player count with tps, to show you how much impact players have on the tps. Ofc. it's not the player itself standing completely still in a void world that lowers the tps, but all the things that player loads around it, like entities, redstone, tile enteties etc.
From Simplex last 24 hours:
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Post by Zephy on Sept 14, 2019 7:13:52 GMT
I recently was made aware that there was a twelfth rule added; no alt accounts on the server. I was told this was to combat circumventing bans and to reduce lag. I'm not sure exactly where you heard this, but it wasn't exactly added to reduce lag or combat ban circumvention, or because we changed our minds on the subject for that matter. It was added because of a case which was a bit of a mess that would have been much more clear-cut if this was a rule. Rules don't do anything to combat or prevent something. They're there to keep order, and they simply make you aware of what you shouldn't do, and if you break a rule, that's on you.
-Alt Accounts Do Not Cause Server LagThe argument for Rule #12, aside from trying to keep away banned players, is that it causes the server to lag and slow down. While at first, adding more users to the server does sound like it would cause more lag to occur, the reality is clear: this is not the case. Alt accounts don't cause server lag. As a test, I did a simple test to determine the amount of server lag while a chunk is loaded and unloaded. I asked for the tps (ticks per second) from two locations; spawn and my wool farm. I wasn't allowed to conduct the test more than once. The following statistics are from a moderator. The tps while idle at the wool farm was 13.477. The tps while idle at spawn was 13.08. While there is a difference of ~.397 ticks of lag, the test wasn't isolated, only done once, and many other variables couldn't be taken into account. The difference in lag while at my wool farm was imperceivable to everyone else, not noticeable. This means that afk-ing at somewhere like a wool farm would cause the server to undoubtedly experience less than .397 ticks of lag. The number of entities at my farm doesn't impact the performance or the lag of the server, whether they are or aren't loaded. If the amount of lag produced by afk-ing at a farm were .100 ticks per second, and twelve people were at different farms, the lag would only ever amount to 1.2 ticks of lag. The exact number is possibly less, and therefore negligible to the server's performance for its users. In short, it isn't making a difference to the performance of the server. Even though the server is having lag issues, it is not as a result of people afk-ing at farms. It wouldn't strain the server. Sure, by themselves alts don't cause lag, but what they load sure can. Also this test is flawed as fuck and probably couldn't be any more flawed even if you tried. There were presumably around 24 other players online, meaning that this is a completely uncontrolled environment, and you're using one specific farm as a test without even having a clue about how much performance it takes to run that farm by itself. This is like trying to measure how fast the air you breathe out travels using an external device in front of your mouth while standing outside in the middle of a fucking storm. Also "ticks of lag" is not a thing. Ticks take a certain amount of time to process, and when ticks take over 50ms to process, that's when it starts lagging. If ticks take less than 50ms to process the server would run at 20tps. If they take exactly 50mspt the server would run at 20tps. If they take exactly 100mspt the server would run at 10tps. Anyway, even assuming your test had any sort of value and the server would drop to 15tps from 16tps, that would not be "1 tick of lag". The tps dropping by 1 from the initial value when running a farm means something entirely different depending on what the original TPS value is. Dropping from 18tps (55.556mspt) to 16tps (62.500mspt) is a difference of about 7mspt. Dropping from 12tps (83.334mspt) to 10tps (100.000mspt) is a difference of 16.7mspt. Furthermore, just because one person is using an alt to idle at a location that takes 0.5mspt to run, that doesn't mean another person won't be at a location that takes 8mspt to run. Anyway, this kind of bullshit wasn't allowed even before this rule was added, despite never being explicitly stated in the rules. We don't care if you're idle at a farm so long as you're there, but when you starts bringing alts with the sole purpose of idling at farms into play you're really pushing it well across the line. Also, ANYTHING takes up SOME performance. Sometimes it's barely measurable. Other times it's a lot. Whatever the case, you're here presumably to play to the game, so how about actually playing the game? -Rule #12 Does Not Prevent Users from Circumventing BansThis argument is significantly solid, and people who've been guilty of violating the rules must serve their punishment. However, this doesn't do much to deter people from using another user to circumvent bans, because it isn't effective. It isn't effective because of something that's existed since the very beginning; every players' IP is known by the admins and moderators. Every person who's ever logged in has their IP stored and the IPs of banned players are especially taken note of. IPs are usually fixed and can't be changed unless you want to pay for a VPN. I wouldn't bet on banned Minecraft users paying an additional $26.95 for a new account on top of a monthly VPN service to counteract a ban. How it works is that if a user is banned, they could use another account to access the server. However, their IP would register the same. Using different accounts doesn't change your IP and the admins would promptly notice your IP and have you IP banned if you weren't already. Not allowing alt accounts because you don't want players circumventing their bans is ineffective and useless. We have a better system to manage people who are trying to cheat their way out of a ban, and we're already using it. It isn't fair to the players to not allow alt accounts because of a problem that often doesn't occur and is already easily manageable. A sign saying that you can't use an alt account to circumvent a ban isn't going to stop cheaters from cheating again. No shit. Rules don't prevent or combat anything, It's their enforcement that does. This rule wasn't even added to combat ban evasion in the first place. That doesn't mean shouldn't be a rule though.
As a personal note, I know a lot of Simplex players who've used alt accounts in the past to make their gathering of materials easier. They don't have to waste time sitting in one spot just to keep an area loaded, and have more time to freely play around in the server and have fun. The introduction of Rule #12 however, doesn't add positive experience to the player on the server and arguably makes their experience worse. Instead of being able to do two things at once, players must remain in the area and keep their chunks loaded. This forces them to remain idle for minutes or hours, sitting in a spot while doing nothing. This kind of inconvenience makes the Simplex experience, in my opinion, dull and exhausting. I've wasted hours of personal time this week waiting at my farm, unable to move or risk losing out on wool production. This can leave a person feeling bored and trapped, wanting to do more on the server but having to wait until they're done farming what they need, which could take hours. The amount of productivity, the fun, and enjoyment you could be doing are lost because of this rule. It forces players to spend hours standing idle to gather resources instead of engaging with players, building spectacular creations, and enjoying the game. Using alts for this kind of stuff (or any kind of stuff, really) was never supposed to be a thing in the first place. This doesn't force anyone to do anything. It's your choice to be idle instead of doing something else and having fun.
I respect the Staff, I admire all of them. They make the rules for users to follow so we can all have a good time. As much as I respect their authority, I am humbly arguing and protesting against this rule, as it makes the server experience worse for anyone with alt accounts who don't want to waste time. It doesn't prevent any of the aforementioned problems, and I hope a discussion can be made and a compromise reached because I want to keep my experience at Simplex, and the experience of others, full of joy and not full of boredom. I hope my words and concerns are heard and that the Staff consider removing the rule or at the very least, make exceptions to it. No. You wrote this entirepost as if we ever said "yeah you can go ahead and use alts to idle at farms" before the rule was added. The "do not cause lag" section of your post is just complete bullshit. The "circumvent bans" section is literally not even an argument. And the remainder of your post essentially just says "I want to be able to use an alt to idle at farms", which is just not going to happen. If you're going to post something like this do your research and maybe find a point to actually argue on why it should be allowed. (Finding it not fun to idle at farms is not a valid argument.) The only exception to the rule I can think of would be if someone lost access to their old account (meaning that it won't be online at the same time anyway).Th
Thank you for your feedback, I appreciate the constructive criticism. I didn't have much to go on, and was trying to express my opinion based with what I had and what I was told. I don't possess much of the tools necessary to conduct proper research, or the knowledge. I thought that as a player of the server, I could express my opinion on whether or not a rule should stay.
I didn't mean any harm, and forgive me for not having the proper material or knowledge of how the lag works or why the rule was implemented. I gave my opinion, and I would appreciate it if considerable thought were given to it. It would sincerely mean a lot.
Kind Regards.
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Post by Zephy on Sept 14, 2019 9:49:53 GMT
Reading over SnuRRe and Veil's posts, I'm quite displeased. As much as I appreciate constructive criticism and suggestion, I feel the need to respectfully say that the way that you both replied to this post was quite harsh. I'm an outsider, I only provided my opinion and how much information I knew to justify my opinion. I'm sorry that I didn't know or had access to more accurate information, I tried to get my thoughts about the rule out as fast as I could to see what everyone else's thoughts were.
With that being said, I, respectfully, must say that it wasn't nice was to be told that my post is ridiculous and that some points that I've stated were "no shit", which is both demeaning and insulting. I didn't know much, and simply wanted to raise a discussion. The way both of you clamped down hard on my suggestion without much thought was very rude, and I say this with much respect.
I find it hard now to share my opinion anymore, and the rudeness of those posts has made me very uncomfortable with the Staff. I'm trying to be as respectful and as humble as I can, and please forgive me for my rant, but I have a serious personal issue with how you two replied. I have personal problems, and the way I'm spoken to can effect me greatly since I have PTSD. And hearing this from two people I've admired shook me to my core, and I'm not as comfortable or confident in the Staff as I used to be or wanted to be.
All I ask is that maybe in the future, you could be gentler in your responses, no matter how ridiculous the topic is? I know it's disrespectful to ask, but hearing that kind of commentary from Staff tonight was very stressful and hurt, quite honestly. You two might've not had bad intentions, but please be careful with your wording, and not be so quick to stomp out an opinion.
I see that using an alt account may lag the server, looking over the graph I was given. I'm sorry I didn't know all of the facts, but thank you for bringing them to me and explaining why alt accounts aren't allowed. I appreciate the explanation.
Respectfully Yours,
-EnderKitty
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2019 16:01:51 GMT
Alt accounts not being allowed should have been a rule a while ago (I'm still surprised as I thought it already existed). Main reason being is it creates an unfair advantage over players who do not posses an alt account by being able to use double the amount of server resources than is normal. Secondary reason would be because we don't believe you SHOULD be using an alt account on Simplex regardless. The server is meant to be played with only one account. It creates an advantage where there shouldn't be one.
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Post by Admin on Sept 14, 2019 16:11:24 GMT
I won't apologize for what Snurre or Veil said, their words are their own, but I will offer a bit of advice. If you're going to make a post saying something "SHOULDN'T" be a rule and then provide factually incorrect statements as to why, it's hard to not to post a critical response. It would be better if you had simply asked for detailed reasons for why the rule was implemented before coming out with this.
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